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Interview with Grandpa Max Sunday, August 4, 2013, Kitimat, BC
Heather: Okay Grandpa we are recording now.
So, This is what day are we today, August 4th, 2013, I think.
Grandpa Max: The first was Thursday
Heather: Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Ya
Grandpa we are the fourth today. Sunday the fourth. How were holidays
celebrated in your family growing up?
Grandpa Max: Well we had a Christmas
tree always and there were gifts. During the depression there was limited
amount of money spent on anything. It just wasn’t available. I just remember
the year that I found out there was no Santa Claus. I had asked for a pair of skates and just a
few days before Christmas mother said that the skates hadn’t arrived, they’d
ordered them from Eaton’s, in those days Eaton’s catalogue was the primary
source of goods. But the skates didn’t come. So that’s when mother had to tell
me that there’d be no skates under the tree for me.
Heather: How old were you Grandpa?
Grandpa Max: I seem to think I was
about seven.
Heather: What would your holiday meal be
like? Would you have turkey or would you have beef?
Grandpa Max: We would have turkey.
Heather: And pies?
Grandpa Max: Yes. So often, a special
day was spent having dinner at Mother’s parent’s house. Mother’s oldest sister,
Aunt Idell, never married. She chose to stay home and look after her parents
and they needed looking after and I remember one occasion and I assume it was
Christmas the table was set four times, with four different sittings. First
would be the children, and the parents had to look after the children, the next
group would be a little older, the third group would be the teenagers, the
fourth group would be the parents. Some of the older teenagers ate with the
parents. But we had turkey and all the other things that go with Christmas
dinner. That might have been one of the only times a year that we didn’t have
ice cream.
Heather: Oh, no ice cream? So what would you
do for dessert then?
Grandpa Max: Oh, pie with whipping
cream. Mother’s oldest brother also never married, and whenever there was a
special day he was there, and he looked after the freezing of the ice cream.
Aunt Idell, and mother and some of the other girls did the cooking of it. As
soon as they said it was ready, by that time he would have the freezer ready
with ice broken up into small pieces to go around the freezer.
Heather: How would you make the ice cream?
Did they pour the cream into a bowl and just stir it?
Grandpa Max: No, no. They had an ice
cream freezer. It had a metal centre about 6 inches in diameter and 18 inches
tall. I don’t know how the cooking part went but they poured it into this metal
container. Put a lid on it. Uncle Allan would make sure there was chipped ice
to go all the way around and then we’d turn the handle. Some of us older boys
used to argue with one another who was going to freeze and who was going to
turn the handle next.
Heather: Would you flavour the ice cream or
would you mostly just have vanilla?
Grandpa Max: Mostly just vanilla.
Heather: Grandpa, can you tell me how you
met Grandma?
Grandpa Max: Of course I can I’ll
never forget it. I finished high school in June of 1939. England had been at
war with Germany for some time. The Canadian Prime Minister. I’m sorry I
shouldn’t say that they were at war with Germany. They had been trying to
negotiate with the German emperor and when they thought they had settled so
there would be no war, Germany attacked Poland. England had a treaty with
Poland that if either one of them was attacked by an enemy the other one would
join in to help. So when Germany attacked Poland it was evident that Poland
could not stand up against Germany. The English Prime Minister had a national
broadcast and said England is at war with Germany. The next thing the Canadian
Prime Minister said Canada is at war with Germany.
Heather: How did you feel when you heard
that? That’s just how it was.
Grandpa Max: It’s just one thing that
happened. The Canadian Prime Minister promised the British Prime Minister that
Canada would provide a million military personnel to help the English homegaurd
defend the country against any invaders and the loses of the pilots and other
personnel , not necessarily army, anyway, the Canada Prime Minister got a
little bit concerned because Canada was losing a fair number of lives. He was ready to pass a law that making
conscription the method of keeping the army up to strength. But he had three or
four members of his cabinet of the province of Quebec and he had of his own
staff some advisors, and they all said to him if you pass conscription you’ll
get fewer people joining the army then you have now under your voluntary
system. So he didn’t push conscription, but he convinced the House of Commons
to pass a law saying that all Canadian men ,unattached, meaning that they were
not married, between the ages of 16 and 60 or something like that were to have
30 days of basic training.
I
had gone to Normal School in September 1939 graduated in June of 1940.
Heather: Is Normal School Teacher School?
Grandpa Max: Yes. As soon as I
graduated Normal School I applied to the superintendent of Schools for St.
Mary’s River School Division which is where I lived and I didn’t hear anything
until the middle of August and I then a phone call from the Superintendent
saying “I have a position and nobody really wants it but if you want it,
depending on how you feel about Hutterites” and I said “what do you mean?”,
“just that, do you have anything against them?”, and I said “no.” Well I have a
position at a Hutterite colony and if you want it you can have it so I said
“good I’ll take it.” So I started in September teaching.
After
Christmas when I came back to the school for teaching, I had a letter saying
that I should report on the first of March for my thirty days of training, I
made arrangements for the school to be looked after by another fellow while I
was gone. I went to a training centre in Central Alberta, I keep thinking it
was Camrose but I don’t know I don’t remember the name of the place, I thought
it was South of Calgary once again I’m not sure if my memory is correct.
I
reported and the teacher I was with finished the thirty day agenda a few days
early and instead of sending us home as the original law said we were loaded on
a train and shipped to military units east.
I ended up in Brandon, Manitoba at a army training centre. After I’d
been there for, oh, a year, I was a sergeant and another sergeant and I became
friends. And this friend had made arrangements somehow, and I don’t know how,
that he could go home after lunch on Sunday to have Sunday dinner with his
mother, who lived only a ten minute walk from the army base and she was still
living in the house that she and her husband had rented when they first moved
to Brandon and that was when the kids were small just starting school.
They
were English and they had settled in a little unorganized community about 20
miles northwest of Brandon. When the kids got old enough to go to school, the
law said they had to go to school, but there was no school, and so they decide
to move to Brandon. They found this
house that they liked and they rented it and they lived in it, I can’t tell you
how many years. They had two children, a boy and a girl. The daughter had gone
to Normal School in Brandon. The boy started out as a radio announcer and he
worked for CKX which was the radio station in Brandon. When he went on the air he
would say “CKX Deacon Speakin’.” Their last name was Deacon. Then he got
transferred to Winnipeg CKY and was not happy there and phoned his mother one
day and said I’m coming home, the next thing, I met him at the army base
somehow, after he left the radio business, he ended up being posted at the army
base 10 minute walk from where his mother lived. So he and I were both
instructors.
One
day I had been up and showered and washed and shaved and everything, I’d just
finished making my bed I looked up at this face with a horrible beard looking
at me grinning. Yesterday when I was home having dinner with mother I said to
her “We have a big lonesome farm boy at the base and I’m sure he would like to
have a good home cooked meal. Can I bring him home next week?” And she said
“Yes” And so when he finished telling me all this he said “Now that’s your
invitation. Got it?” And I said “Yes.”
So
the following Sunday after we’d had lunch he came to my quarters and he said
“are you ready to go?” “Yes” Now this is about the first of February 1942 and
in that time of the year in Southern Manitoba in can get cold. So anyway, he
said “put on your coat.” So we put on our grey coats, winter hat, winter
gloves, winter scarves, but not winter over shoes. We walked down to the house.
The first room we went into was a screened in veranda. He said hang your coat
there. In the hall there was one of these old fashioned tall coat hangers, long
before your time you might never have seen it, but it was something like an
armchair, not soft, on the back of it, it went up about six feet the width of
the back of that chair there was a mirror the whole length, with hangers on the
side, with a shelf on top. So he said “hang your stuff there.” So I stopped
there took off my hat, my gloves, my scarf put them on the shelf on top and
took of my coat and put it on the hanger that was on the side of that. So I’m
doing all this and I look around and there’s nobody I can see anyplace. I
looked down past the foot of the stairwell into the next room was a
chesterfield sitting before a window. I said to myself if nobody comes by the
time I get my coat hung up, I’m going in there and sit down. I hung up my coat
and was ready to go in there and Ron, that’s the brother said “Ok Max, come and
see Mother.”
I
went down the hall. It looked like the end of the hall was a dead end. When I
got there I found in fact that the end was closed off but there was an archway
on the left side. I turned there and I bumped into something I hadn’t seen for
weeks. It was a dining room table with a beautiful pure white table cloth. In
the centre of it were a shiny sugar bowl, cream bowl, salt and pepper shaker
and just all gleaming. On the end, when I turned to go into that arch, I bumped
against the end of the table. When I
bumped into the end of the table, and saw that in the center of it, around the
side there were four places set. There was one in front of me, I was at the end
of the table, there was one around the corner on my left, there were two around
the corner on my the right. Ron was over on my right.
So
he introduced me to his mother and the usual conversation took place. Are you
happy up at the base? Enjoying your work? Yes. Where did you live? Southern
Alberta. Where did you go to school? Southern Alberta and Calgary Normal
School. When that finally slowed up a bit Ron flung out his left arm and
pointed right past me and said “That’s my sister Phyllis.” I was shocked I
didn’t know he had a sister. Then Ron started telling people where to sit.
There was nobody on my left. After a short time I heard somebody on the left
side. I turned my head and looked. And there’s this lovely woman, the top of
her head come even with my eyes. And I said “just right.” And her mother who
had been grinning and laughing stopped laughing said “what do you mean?” And I
said “I mean, she’s just right for dancing.” She said that’s ok. And we had our
meal and it was a good meal.
Afterwards,
us three younger ones were sitting on that chesterfield that I noted earlier.
We were talking and finally Ron said “What are we going to do with the rest of
the day?” I had no ideas and Phyllis had no ideas and finally Ron said, well
there’s a variety show scheduled for the drill hall tonight, it starts at 8:30,
no 8:00 o’clock, and finishes at 10:30 we could go to that so Phyllis and I
said ok. So at 7:30 Ron said ok let’s get ready. We got on our coats and had
walked ten minutes up to the base. We went in the camp through these big sliding
gates and came to a walk that lead to the sergeant’s mess and Ron said wait
here for me. I’ve left something up in the mess when I had breakfast this
morning and I’ll go get it and I’ll be back here and we’ll find a place to sit.
If anything happens and I don’t get back quickly you two go ahead and find a
place to sit down and save a place for me.
People
were going past us in hordes and I said if we don’t get over there soon, there
won’t be any seats left. We went over to a big sliding door on the side of that
building. In front of it bleachers covered the whole end of it and it looked
like it was full. I was standing around because there were soldiers behind the
bleachers and there was one big arch that was about a foot wide and a foot deep
and I was looking because a soldier had climbed up it and was lying down on it
so he could see the stage. Finally Phyl said “It looks like there is a place
down there at the bottom. Should we go there?” “Sure.”
We
went down the centre aisle and the place that she looked out was the second row
of bleachers from the front. We could almost reach out and touch the stage.
When we got there, there was nobody around and she asked the people behind “are
you saving these seats for anybody?” “No.” “Is it all right if we take them”
“Sure. Go ahead” So we took off our outer clothes and sat down and we put them
on a bench between us so we could save a place for Ron. We just got that all
ready and sat down and the commanding officer came in from the side door with a
couple of children with him and some guests behind him and they sat in the
front row. The show went on well and it was a good show. At 10:30 the announcer
came back on for the first time and said this next number is our last number
and when it’s finished it will be over and it was, right on the dot.
Then
people went the other direction out of those doors to get out of the big gates
so that the army soldiers who were based on camp could take his guests home and
get back before the gates closed. We had stopped again at the place where we
thought maybe Ron would come out but he didn’t. I began to worry because I only
had a half an hour to walk Phyllis home and get back inside the gates before 11
o’clock. I said we better go. She said fine, so I walked her home, watched her
go through that veranda door into the house and I turned around and went back
to camp. I just got inside those gates and they closed. I was alright, I was
safe.
Over
the time I’d been in Brandon I’d developed a schedule. Usually on Wednesday
after work I would walk downtown. They had two movie theatres and so I would go
to one of the movies. On Saturday I’d go down and watch a double header. On
about Tuesday I was thinking about Wednesday and I said to myself I wonder if
she would go with me. There is only one way to find out, so I picked up the
telephone and dialed her number and her mother answered, May I speak with
Phyllis? “Sure.” And she came to the phone. “I am going to a show tomorrow
night, would you like to come with me.” There was a long pause. “You are going
to the show tomorrow night are you?” “Yes.” “With or without me?” “Yes either with you or without you, I am
going.” There was an even longer pause. Finally she said “yes thank you I’ll
go.” “What time do I need to come to get you?” So I said okay I’ll be there so
we went to the show.
When
we got to the theatre it was one of these productions were you go in and if you
are there when the show starts you stay for the show. If you’re late you can go
in anyway and find a place to sit down see what is left of the show. Then when it’s finished people who had
already seen it would leave and those who came late would stay to see the
beginning. So that’s what we did. When we got here it was pretty well filled
except three or four seats from the back there was a row of seats with three or
four empty places. So we went in there and sat down. Phyllis went in first sat
down and I went in and sat down beside her and after a while the seat was not
padded and the arms were not comfortable so I shifted and put my left arm
around the back of her seat and she looked at me as if to say ‘now what does he
think he is going to do?’ I did nothing. So we saw that show, we stayed for the
second and then we walked home.
Heather: So when was it official that you
two started dating, or that she was your girlfriend or you were courting or
whatever you call it?
Grandpa Max: I don’t know, all I know
is, and I don’t know where I got this information, but when we were standing at
the table Phyl disappeared and I’m not sure how she got there, but she ended up
in the kitchen with her mother and she said to her mother “I’m going to marry
him.” This was within about 5 minutes of meeting me. “Does he know it?” “No,
but he will.” And she was back standing at her place at the table before the
rest of us were in to sit down. From then on Wednesday and Saturday we went to
the show.
Heather: Is that mostly what you did for
dates or did you go for walks or go for ice cream.
Grandpa Max: Oh we went skating once.
We used to go for walks. Phyllis liked to walk and so we’d go for walks and on
one of these walks how we started I don’t know but we were talking about
getting married. When should it be? I don’t know Christmas sounds like a good
idea. This was still in February. She said all right. I went to the base and
she went home. The next time I went to see her she came out of the house and she
said have you heard the news? The rumour is that there is going to be a big
draft of soldiers out of the base in September. We had discussed having the
wedding on her birthday, which was the 20th of September. With this
news September was out and so was Christmas. So we talked again and Phyllis
went and talked to her mother about it. As far as I remember it up until that
time I had never asked her if she would marry me. We had never talked about it.
Heather: Um Grandpa you’ve been talking
about Grandma’s mom now, what about her father? Did he pass away when she was
younger?
Grandpa Max: Granddad was one of the
absolute first recruits that the military had after the Prime Minister had….he
joined the air force and ended up as a corporal cook in a place on Vancouver
Island called Coal Harbour. He was there as a matter of fact, and that was the
only place he served during the whole war.
Heather: Did you say he was a cook?
Grandpa Max: Yes. He was a good cook.
As a corporal he didn’t make enough money to make it to Brandon for the
wedding. One day I said to her I’m going to have to phone mother and tell her
that I’m going to get married and so when I got back to base to get to a
telephone I phoned mother to tell her I was going to get married. Mother’s
first question was “Is she a member of the church?” “No mother she isn’t.”
Second question “Is she a good girl?” “Yes mother she is.” “OK marry her.” “Can
you and dad come down?” “No, It’s a busy time of the year and we don’t have the
money.”
Heather: So what was your wedding like
Grandpa?
Grandpa Max: We were married in an
army base chapel by an army chaplain. I had to get permission from the
commanding officer to get married. So I applied, he called me in, who are you going
to marry? She is sergeant Deacon’s
sister. Ok. He gave me permission and he said you better go talk to the
patton and so I did and he said yes he
could. We had settled on the 1st of August, which was a Saturday, at
10 o’clock in the morning.
Now,
time went on and I couldn’t see any preparations being made for a wedding, so
I mentioned that to Phyl and she said
well what do you mean? I said, well, aren’t there some things that need to
happen. Are there going to be any guests? We are going to have to invite them.
They have been invited. I said to her don’t you need a wedding dress? Yes, but
I have one. How did that happen? I was walking around Rosser Avenue and I
passed a dress shop and in the window were wedding dresses with a sign for
sale. So I went in and said I’d like to look at the wedding dress. So they
brought the wedding dress out and it was frilly frivilos? and flappy parts, she
said no I don’t like that one. So they brought out another one same thing and
wouldn’t have that. As she was about to leave and then as she looked out the
window there was a wedding dress in the window and she said how about that one
so the girl brought that one out and it was straight dress not a lot of flaps
on it, it was her size and she checked it out to see that the seams were all
good. Finally she said well it looks alright, how much is it? The girl said
it’s on sale. I know it’s on sale but how much is it. Hesitation, $10. Well
I’ve got $10 in my wallet I’ll buy it. So she did. They exchanged packages. The
girl had the package, the dress ready to go. So she give her the dress and Phyl
gave her the $10 dollars.
So
the next thing I asked are we going to have a honeymoon? Yes, where do you want
it. I don’t know, I’m a stranger to these parts, what do you say? Well, there
is a resort town about two hours drive south from here with an artificial lake
and it’s very popular. Does it have a hotel? Yes. Well if you give me the name
and number for the hotel I’ll phone for a reservation. It’s already done.
The
point is that they were done. Oh, I know what it is. How we are going to get
down to there. It was Uncle Bert. This was her mother’s brother, who had come
to Canada. He had lived with his sister and her husband ever since he came to
Canada. He had a job and he made enough money to buy a car. She said Uncle Bert
is giving us as a wedding present the use of his car, and he will provide us
with gas coupons in case we need to get coupons. So that was looked after.
I
did get around to asking her to marry her once. We were walking we were on our
way, just talking, we were talking about the wedding and I said if I’m going to
marry you I should ask her to marry me. By this time the answer was yes.
Heather: Did you give her a ring?
Grandpa Max: Ah yes, that was the
other thing. No, I didn’t.
Heather: Did she wear a wedding band later?
Grandpa Max: Well, we need rings.
Yes. Well I don’t know what we are going to do because I don’t have enough
money. I’ve got a hundred dollars. I’ll lend it to you for rings or whatever
you need to do. We went down early and we walked down Rosser Avenue until we
came to a jewellery shop. We went in and the guy behind the counter said “Hi
Phyllis what can I do for you?” We are looking for rings. He took out a trey of
rings and he said ok Phyllis you look at the rings while I talk to this young
man right here. After a minute she said I want that set of rings right there.
Finally I said to him, how much are they? They were a matched engagement ring and
a wedding ring. He thought about it for quite
a long time and finally he said $65. So I took out my $100 bill. He said do you
want to put them on? No, I’ll take them home. So we walked out of the jewellery
shop. This was about a week before we were supposed to get married. So when we
get back to her house and her mother looks at the rings and was happy about
them. Then Phyl said ok now I can put on my engagement ring. She used to tell
people I was engaged for one week.
Heather: So Grandpa, what your wedding was
like, you said you got married in a chapel. Was there a reception? Do you
remember what you ate or what your cake was like?
Grandpa Max: No reception. After the
ceremony, we only had about 10 or 12 people there. We had not advertised. That
was one of the criticisms that the fellas on the base had “If we had known we
would have come to the wedding.” It was not announced, so they did not know
about it. So it was mostly Grandma’s family? Yep. She had two cousins two
girls, one was eleven one was sixteen. They were there and I had three other
sergeants, that were instructors with me. One of them was married and his wife
was in Brandon and Ron, her brother walked her down the aisle because her dad
wasn’t there and that left one sergeant who was there his wife wasn’t but he
was at the wedding. So I guess it might be about 10.
After
the wedding we were all invited back to Phyl’s mother’s place to have a
luncheon party. I had invited the Co. and he said I can’t go I had an appointment.
So we all went back to the Deacon home and had our lunch and we were just
sitting talking and the phone rang. Phyl went to the phone and came back said
you are wanted on the phone. So I went to the phone and it was the captain, do
you have Longfield, Vermillion and Deacon there with you? Yes sir. The CO wants
all of you back in his office in 15 minutes. I said we can’t make it sir. Why
not? Well, it’s a 10 minute walk to get back to base and then we would have to
go to our quarters and get dressed properly to go to the CO’s office. Can you
do it in half an hour? Yes sir. OK you’ve got a half an hour. So we had to get
up and put our grey coats on and went back to camp.
Heather: What could be so important that
could take you away from…?
Grandpa Max: I’m coming to that. As
soon as I was ready I was went into the CO’s office and I was called into an
interview with a brigadier general from Ottawa. I’ve forgotten his name. Anyway
when he entered, following army protocol, I saluted, gave him my number, rank
and name. He asked me sit down and then explained that he had been authorized
by army headquarters to organize another field artillery regiment which would
serve only in Canada , it would be fully staffed and all the rest of it . The
army couldn’t give me any officers for this regiment, and they told me to go
out and find out whatever I could. I came here because I heard you had four
good sergeants, and so I’m interviewing all four of you today to see whether or
not I think you are suitable for commissioned office. I finished interviewing
the others came in and we were told that we would have a letter and we would
hear something about it in a couple of weeks. Two weeks later to the day the CO
called us into his office again. We were all dressed in fatigues because we
were taking a group of trainees out to Shiloh to fire the 25 pound gun. We were
just about to leave and a ….came running out. The CO wants you four in his
office right now. Does he want us in fatigues or does he want to have us
dressed properly? Come the way you are. So he got the four of us into his
office. I have a telegram from army headquarters. All four of you have been
granted the Queen’s commission as offices in the army, with rank of second lieutenant.
Two of us had been staff sergeants, which was just a touch above sergeants. The
other two were sergeants. All four of you have been granted commissions and all
four of you have been granted the rank of second lieutenant. Do you have breakfast
in the sergeant’s mess? Yes you can. Do you have lunch in the officer’s mess?
No you can’t you don’t have officers uniforms.
We
had been working under a captain who had been brought back from Europe. Who
managed an artillery renewal course and a course for new officers. So he was
there and he said to the CO, we had worked for him for a couple of weeks, I’ll
look after them, I’ve got my jeep, I’ll take them downtown and get their
uniforms so they can have lunch in the officers mess. So away we went. The
first place we went we bought the required shirts, matching tie, now we didn’t
have to buy shorts because they had been issued to us when the dress of the day
was with shorts. We had the shorts but we didn’t have the socks or the shoes.
This store had that plus the flat hats that we had to wear. We could have left
that store right there, went back to quarters, but on the things we bought, and
go to the mess. He didn’t take us back he took us to another shop. It was a
tailor shop. He said to the man there, these have just been made commissioned
officers and we need dress uniforms. He measured each one of us said come back
in a week, try them on, so we did. We came back in a week and the uniforms were
ready. I can’t tell you, even today, how those uniforms were paid for. We were
told by this brigadier general that the army did not pay for them, they’d be
about $500. Have you got $500? No. Can you get it? Yes. I didn’t know where I’d
get it but if that’s what I have to have to been an officer, I would get it.
The others all said the same thing.
We
were posted to this new regiment. The establishment called for about seven
captains in this regiment. There were none. The four of us who had been
sergeants and in the army for some time were the most experienced of any of
them in artillery. So the battery commanders who were majors probably didn’t
want to do captains’ jobs, so the second lieutenants were assigned the
responsibilities that should have been done by the captains. My own regiment,
in particularly so, because, my own battery commander was not an aggressive sort.
He wasn’t a gung ho kind of a leader. He would let things happen and when
things happened that he needed to attend to, OK he would do it. I ended up
because my rank as a sergeant I ended up
getting most of the assignments that the captain should have had.
Heather: So did you and Grandma end up
living on base or did you and Grandma make a new home?
Grandpa Max: No Grandma had made
arrangements with her mother that we could rent a room of her house. It was the
room that Phyllis already occupied and she turned that into a one room suite.
She did something that I had never even thought about. She decided that she
needed cupboards for the few dishes that we would need and a few other things.
She went to the nearest grocery store and talked to the manager of the fruit
department. In those days much of the fruit, like oranges, came in a long case
about that long and came with a division in the middle and was about that
square and she got three or four of those boxes. She got two of them this way
and she put two others on end and she made two curtains that she attached to
them so that they were all covered.
Heather: What were they used for?
Grandpa Max: For kitchen cupboards.
Heather: Did you have to walk to the army
base every day?
Grandpa Max: Yep. It was a ten minute
walk. I don’t remember how long stayed in Brandon or Shiloh.
Heather: Didn’t you go to England with the
military? Were you married then?
Grandpa Max: Yes.
So
Grandma would have stayed at her mother’s house? Did her brother get married
shortly after that?
Grandpa Max: Yes, shortly after we
did.
Heather: OK Grandpa, I’m going to switch
gears here. If you were to describe Grandma to someone who didn’t know her,
what would you tell them?
Grandpa Max: She was a little bit
shy. She didn’t think she had as much talent as she had bus he was… I keep
thinking of the word wonderful, I admit that I’m prejudiced. She could make up
her mind and once she made up her mind don’t try to change her. She didn’t
fight over it. It was just passive resistance.
Heather: I can be like that sometimes. What
things did she like to do? What were her hobbies? Did she play the piano or
draw or write stories?
Grandpa Max: She played the piano but
not well. She loved poetry.
Heather: Did she have a favourite poem or
poet?
Grandpa Max: Any poem and good
English. She had high standards. One time right before we were married, Nan,
that’s what we called her mother, had gone shopping. Nan had a little dog that
yapped, yapped, yapped. One day I got fed up and I said “I wish someone would shut
up that bloody dog.” Right then and there I got my first lecture on using
proper language. As far as I was concerned the word bloody wasn’t a bad word.
It meant nothing.
Heather: So she wanted you to use good
language? How long had you been married when you went to England?
Grandpa Max: About 2 ½ years.
Heather: Was Uncle Merv born then?
Grandpa Max: Carolyn had.
Heather: Oh that’s right, Carolyn was the
oldest.
Grandpa Max: Carolyn was about six
months old when I left Brandon.
Heather: That must have been hard. So her
mother helped her out a lot?
Grandpa Max: Very much.
Heather:
How long were you gone for?
Grandpa Max: A year and a half.
Heather: So Carolyn must have been walking
around just like Avery at that time. When you found out that you would be
parents were you excited?
Grandpa Max: Of course.
Heather:
How did you choose names for your children?
Grandpa Max: We discussed it. Well,
Carolyn was a name we liked. Her second name Ruth was a family name. Phyl’s
mother was Ruth Tester. We liked Mervyn but my first name was James and my
Dad’s name was James.
Heather: How about my Dad’s name?
Grandpa Max: We liked Kenneth.
William was a family name. My grandfather Sabey’s name was William Sabey.
Heather: What do you believe is the key to a
successful marriage? What made your and Grandma’s marriage good.
Grandpa Max: My wife. She was a
better wife than I was a husband. I remember one time the stake president
called us into his office and said that he had had a letter from a former
friend, or counselor to me when I was a district president. This counselor was
now a general authority and stationed in England. According to the stake
president this letter had requested that Phyl and I go to England and serve
under him. Grandma suffered terrible arthritis. I thought about this and
knowing how many stairs there were in England, because in many cases the ground
floor was in the basement and the living floor was on the second floor. I
couldn’t see how we could have done it.
Heather: How old would you have been at the
time?
Grandpa Max: I don’t know how old I
was. I explained this to the stake president and so we left. Shortly after we
were together talking and Grandma said if you want to go, I will go with you.
If that’s what I wanted, that’s what I would get. I didn’t go back to the stake
president and tell him we would go. That’s worried me ever since.
Heather: But you were concerned about her. I
should wrap up pretty quick. I just have a couple of questions. What word of
advice would you want your children, grandchildren, great grandchildren to
know?
Grandpa Max: Learn good principles
and keep them. When it comes to marriage, give your spouse the same privilege
you want yourself, that is to make your mind up yourself.
Heather: What do you mean by that exactly?
Don’t try to force them or coerce them.
Grandpa Max: One of the best
decisions that Phyl and I made was not long after we were married, I had spent
money for something that Phyl didn’t think we needed, on top of which I had not
discussed this with her. That was the first difference of opinion that we had.
It wasn’t a marriage breaker, there was never any question about divorcing or
separating or anything like that. I finally got exasperated as I usually do. If
you don’t like the way I handle money then you take it over. And she did.
Heather: She kept you in good shape didn’t
she Grandpa? You went on all kinds of trips? What were some of your favourite
things to do with your young family and with Grandma?
Grandpa Max: When we were in
Saskatoon, on Saturday afternoon we would put some wieners and beans and go
down to the river with a campfire on the bank and cook those wieners and beans
for a Saturday evening meal. Mervyn has mentioned to me often how he enjoyed
that. He remembers something I don’t remember. The river was fairly swift in
mainstream but there was a little eddy or whatever you call it that the kids
wanted to get into. I had a very long rope that I would tie around them. So if
they happened to step out too far into that stream I could pull them in. I
don’t remember that but Mervyn does. Even when we were in Germany we decided to
go down to the Rhine River to see if there was a place we could go down to the
river and there was. We had our usual wieners and beans.
While
we were still there a river barge came up the river and nosed in and tied up to
a tie bar. Of course our kids were curious and head down the river it was not a
hundred yards, closer to fifty yards. We ran after them to make sure they
didn’t bother anyone on the boat. We went down there and the owner of this said
would you like to have a tour of our boat? Yes we would. The first place we
looked in was an apartment that the owner and his family lived in while they
were on the trip. The wife had a dress pattern cloth all laid out on the table.
She’d been making some clothes for herself and her daughter. Right next to that
was the engine room, a big diesel engine. The place was spotless. There was no
oil on the floor. The engines were clean. It was just an amazing sight. Then
there was the big open area where cargo was stored. At the bow of the barge
there was a structure of a lot of individual rooms. So that when he had a full
load and a full crew they could sleep in those places or that end of the boat.
It was just a well run, well run organization. They were Dutch. They were not
German. This particular barge had left Amsterdam, come up the Rhine River to a
place where they unloaded the load that they had. I guess they were going up
river to pick up another load I don’t know.
Even
there we took occasion to have a small campfire and our supper of wieners and
beans.
Heather: Grandpa do you want to take a
moment and talk about your service in the church and lessons you learned
through serving.
Grandpa Max: To introduce that I’ll
start with a discussion I had with my mother. We lived on the farm and of
course when we were not going to school we had chores to do on the farm. This
one Saturday, and I say Saturday because that’s what it was. Mother baked bread
twice a week, Monday and Saturday. This particular Saturday I had finished the
chores I had for that moment. This particular Saturday mother was kneading her
bread. I’m not sure if I was a teenager or not. I think I was at least twelve.
I had two questions for mother. The first question was ‘can girls have a baby
without being married?’ Mother said yes. After a long pause she explained to me
what we used to call the facts of life. I got that lesson. Then I said to her
mother do members of the church ever say no when they are called to a position.
Again she hesitated, then she said no. Why? Then she explained to me how calls
were made in the church. That stayed with me all my life. When I was called to
be district president, even after I was set apart, we got home and Grandma said
to me ‘why do you want that job?’ I said
it’s not a question of whether I want it or not, I was called to take it. She
never questioned it again, and nobody could have asked for better support then
she gave me. I learned a few things I can think of right now, Nobody called to
a position can handle it all by themselves. They all need, and I as much as
anybody, help from on high. I thought it was true then and I think it is true
now. The time when Jordan was branch president He understood that he needed
help from the Lord.
During
the time I met a number of general authorities and even the Quorum of the
Twelve. They are people, they are individuals. I remember when I was a
counselor to the mission president in Montreal , what the heck’s name, he’s now
second man in the Quorum of the twelve, L. Tom Perry was doing a tour of
missions. When he came to the Montreal, Quebec Mission the mission president
his name was John Olsen, his wife decided to have a dinner for Elder Perry.
President Olsen invited his counsellors to have dinner with him that night. As
we finished eating we were talking around the table. Elder Perry told us
something about his life. He had been married and his wife died and he
continued to work as a member of the quorum of the twelve but he was not
actively looking for a second wife. One day two or three of the other members
of the quorum of the twelve said to him it’s time you got married. It’s time
you start to, so I did start, and eventually I met the woman I am now married
to and it was a good change.
When
I was welfare services area director for Eastern Canada I met Rex Pinnegar and
Elder Didier, who was Ken’s mission president, and a number of other names I
don’t really remember and in some ways they were all the same but in actual
fact they were all different. One of them that I was visiting with who wanted
to know about my family and I told them about Mervyn who worked for the March
of dimes learned to appreciate people who were handicapped. He said that’s
good, I have a daughter who is handicapped, I‘d like to talk to your son about
that. Rex Pinnegar who was at the time President of the Marriot? When the
Welfare Services area directors were all told to come to the meeting and make a
report and after we had fiished our report he was say to us now president we
are finished that part of the report if you prefer to stay you may stay. Elder
Didier would say brethren you are excused. You were told to leave.
Heather: Everybody does things a little
differently.
Grandpa Max: Yep. I had met N.E.
Tanner and Hugh B. Brown before they became General Authorities.
Heather: Grandpa I have a question and this
is totally switching gears. My Dad told me we have a grandmother who was
somehow connected to Porter Rockwell, some great, great grandmother. What do
you know about that and where can I find out more about that.
Grandpa Max: He was referring to my
Grandma Sabey. She was a young girl during those older days of the church and
this Porter Rockwell if I remember correctly, was a body guard for I don’t
remember.
Heather: I think it was Joseph or Brigham
Young.
Grandpa
Max: This Porter Rockwell was kind of a rough and tough guy. Good with a
pistol. He might drop in at the home of my Grandmother at any time. Frequently,
she’d be in bed asleep. He would say I don’t care, wake her up I want to talk
to her. So that happened. He bought my grandmother her first pair of shoes.
Heather: How old would she have been? Was he
interested in her as someone he would date?
Grandpa Max: No, no, no. She was a
little girl. She was his pet.
Heather: What was her name?
Grandpa Max: Sarah.
Heather: Evans, right before she got
married?
Grandpa Max: Yes. She was I think the
fifth or six child of the first wife. Able Evans’ first wife. He had three
wives. The first one was also Sarah. She was Welsh like great Grandpa was. They
met on board ship on the way from England to United States. There were about
150 new converts on that ship. One of them was great Grandma. That’s where they
met, I don’t know where they got married. It took them about 30 days to cross
the Atlantic. It seems to me they went into New Orleans at the mouth of the
Mississippi river. There they took transportation up the river to St. Louis
where there was a pause of some kind and there they continued on up the river
to a place now called Omaha. There they had to change methods of transportation
to the Missouri river that was smaller than the Mississippi river. They got
there too late in the year ot start the trek across Wyoming. They decided to
stay in Winter Quarters. That would give Great Grandpa time to get a new
covered wagon to make the trek west. When they go to the Utah area, they
settled in Lehi. That’s when the Lord said that they should live plural
marriage. That upset a lot of saints. Very few, in actual fact, changed over.
Great Grandfather believed in obeying the commandments. The prophet reminded
people again and said it applies especially to church leaders to take the lead.
Great Grandfather was in a bishopric at the time and considered that made him a
church leader and began actively looking for or searching for a second wife. He
found a young woman who was Welsh but who was unmarried. He began to court her
and eventually purposed and she agreed.
Heather: I don’t think I could do that.
Grandpa Max: So then the household
got busy preparing for the trip from Lehi to Salt Lake City, because there were
no temples close. They did not plan on going to the Salt Lake temple. The plan
was that they would go to the endowment house. Eventually they made the trip.
The first wife went with them to witness the sealing of her husband to another
woman. Eventually, Great Grandfather still felt that he had not completed the
commitment that the Lord wanted. He looked for a third wife which he found, who
was another Welsh girl, young, and as Grandma Sabey said, she was sickly and
couldn’t carry out all of the duties of a pioneer woman. She was a good
seamstress. The first wife had about 6 children, maybe more. The second wife, Aunt
Martha, had four children and the younger, Jean, had one little girl. Then Jean
died. Trying to determine what was going to happen to the little baby. Great
Grandma said she would look up after the little baby and bring it up as one of
her own. Then Able was called on a mission back to Wales. Apparently he said to
the President look I have three wives and a number of children and they need me
to look after them. And the President said look if they run into difficulty the
church will look after them. While he was there he took sick. He refused to go
to a doctor. His argument was the Lord will look after me. He died. Parley P.
Pratt was in England at the time and he couldn’t convince him either. He wrote
a letter back to the President. We had a copy of that letter but I don’t know
where it is.
One
year Grandma and I because we had
relatives in Idaho and Colorado. As we were travelling north from Salt Lake
City to the next town had a big army
base. As we were travelling along I noticed a sign that said Bear Lake that
way.I just turned my wheel and went up that road. I didn’t ask anybody’s
permission. The road I took was not a good road. It was wide enough for two tracks of wheels.
We got up on that road and saw Bear Lake.
As we were travelling along there was a board nailed to a post and one
word on it “liberty.” I remembered that because that was where my mother was
born. Liberty, in Bear Lake County, Idaho. There was no town. The area was
bare. We stopped and looked at the sign and there was a man in a field off to
my left. I thought I’d ask him if he could tell me anything about liberty.
Well, he said if you go into the town turn left and go down two houses, I think
there is somebody there who can help you. Thank you very much. So we went down
and there was an older lady there. As it turned out she was a Toomer. She had a
copy of this letter that Parley P. Pratt. She gave us a copy of this letter.
Heather: Is there anything else you’d like
to add Grandpa?
Grandpa Max: I think this should be a
general rule. Safety is more important than speed. Family is more important
than anything.
Heather: There are a hundred more questions
I could ask you Grandpa.
Grandpa Max: Parents are responsible
for supporting the children. See that they are fed and clothed and housed. I
know there was another point I was going to say, I’m just trying to think of
it. Teaching them how to make decisions and understand that they are going to
make wrong decisions occasionally. Accepting that, realizing that it’s natural
that we all have to learn how to analyze and how to think about a situation and
all the different ways that Not all of
us will always make the same decision. One of the important decisions is to
decide again here a decision they made in the spirit world. That is which leader
they want to follow. The parents should do their best to help them decide to
follow the Saviour. That’s not always easy.
Heather: What do you look forward to most,
to seeing Grandma again?
Grandpa Max: Taking her hand and
walking down the road with her. Hopefully that will come afterwards I’ve had a
chance to put my arms around her and give her a hug. Hopefully that will still
be allowed.
Heather: I’m sure that it will. Thanks so much Grandpa.
